March 4, 2013
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The Value of Prayer?
Good Morning. Honestly, the claims people make for prayer. We at Table 54 would like to bring to you two recent videos that exemplify the kind of religious bull kaka that even other Christians can’t stomach. the first comes from that old git, Pat Robertson. Sit back and enjoy while Pat makes someone a millionaire through prayer.
Next, by way of the BBC we have a expose of a show called “The Miracle Hour,” where people call in to get cured of diseases such as cancer, diabetes or any other chronic and life threatening illness you can name. The host simply prays for you on-air and whoala! You are cured. Have a listen to this garbage:
Now you may take religion seriously. Certainly millions of Americans do. But are you ready to stand up and say God actually accomplishes the kind of idiotic, even life threatening results through prayer that these tele-evangelists claim He does? Imagine what would happen if a person thought they were cured of diabetes and stopped taking their insulin. At worst they’d be dead in a short time. At best they’d be in the hospital.
What do these kinds of shows say about prayer? Considering most doctors will tell you that prayer has no effect what-so-ever on healing illnesses what do these kinds of shows say about the claims the Bible makes for prayer? Even if say 1% of people prayed for recover from whatever ails them does that mean God ignores the other 99%? The Bible claims in the book of James that prayers don’t get answered because the person praying isn’t doing so with the right motives. Really? How are people supposed to know what God will accept as the “right motives”? Oh yeah, it’s in the Bible.
We at Table 54 understand why people pray for relief from their illnesses or money problems. We understand that perhaps just the act of praying might bring a person a bit of peace during a highly upsetting time. But let’s not make claims that could lead to the death of people out of an unrealistic appeal to a deaf God that doesn’t really care if you’re cured or get your bills paid or not. You have to face the fact that if there is a God listening to your prayers that has the supernatural power to cure your illness or give you a million bucks, what does it say about Him when your prayer isn’t answered. And don’t hand me the unmitigated crap about God’s answer being “No.” If that’s the case, your God isn’t as all-powerful or benevolent as you believe. In fact, maybe he doesn’t exist at all.
-Y
Comments (15)
I really hate people like these. that Pat Robertson guy just screams dirty scumbag before even opening his mouth. if these people are so powerful, then why are so many people still suffering? it’s really not that quick of a fix. also, since when does God give power to people on Earth? what’s the difference between praying to him directly, or through someone else? great post, guys!
The Pat person in this blog may actually be very ill … Of course, I can’t say he is, but his strange actions on his show and reports about him seem strongly to indicate that he has mental health problems.
your (propaganda) says: “Considering most doctors will tell you that prayer has no effect what-so-ever on healing illnesses what do these kinds of shows say about the claims the Bible makes for prayer?” [That is clearly an exaggeration. Where is that reported? -- If you don't have a source that is verifiable with factual surveys from hundreds of responses then I'd guess this is an exaggeration--propaganda.]
I found this: When nearly 500 adults were surveyed in 2003 about two-thirds of them thought doctors should know about their spiritual beliefs. About 50 percent of adults in one survey said they’d like doctors to pray with them in near-death situations. In 2007, an Archives of Internal Medicine survey reported that three out of four doctors say their patents mention spiritual issues “sometimes or often.” Results of a May 2006 Medical Care study show that a little more than half of the 1,200 physicians it surveyed say they will pray with patients when asked. Some practices, such as Mission Medical Clinic in Colorado Springs, Colo., offer a “Christ-centered environment.” Physicians there ask patients about their religious or spiritual beliefs when they take their history. Physicians ask, too, what role patients believe faith should play in care, and if patients want to pray with doctors or with volunteer lay ministers. http://www.healthcarecommunication.com/Main/Articles/Doctors_Do_you_pray_with_patients__8984.aspx
A poll of 1,100 physicians found 74 percent of doctors believe miracles have occurred in the past, and 73 percent believe they can occur today http://www.wnd.com/2004/12/28152/#GDORUrlc0Cyogljk.99 “Perhaps the most surprising result of the survey,” the report notes, “is that a majority of doctors (55 percent) said that they have seen treatment results in their patients that they would consider miraculous (45 percent do not). Most physicians pray for their patients as a group (51 percent). Even more, 59 percent pray for individual patients.” Two-thirds encourage their patients to pray. Of those physicians, 5 percent did so for God to answer their prayers, 32 percent for psychological benefits and 63 percent for both reasons. One-third did not encourage their patients to pray. Regarding their views on miracles and the source of the Bible: 37 percent physicians believe the Bible’s miracle stories are literally true, while 50 percent believe they are metaphorically true. ONLY Twelve percent indicated that they did not believe in the Bible’s description of miracles. 55 percent believe that medical practice should be guided by religious teaching.
If you search, you’ll find there are of course atheist doctors and that plenty of medical practitioners don’t offer to pray and many also don’t believe it is helpful. I did so. In fact, the case that you failed to make can be made for less than 50% of medical practitioners.
I think when your doctor gives you advice or prescribes medications, you do what he says. I don’t think prayer or faith negates the need for medical attention.
That said, it is not the worst thing in the world that some people want to believe that prayer can help them. Faith is not without its merits. A lot can be said for peace of mind and reassurance, and as someone who suffered from a severe panic disorder ala PTSD, it is quite a valued commodity. So you don’t believe in God or prayer. No one is gonna force you to. What difference could it possibly make if others do? It’s that whole live and let live bit, ya know? You say tomato, I say no thank you…
[ And don't hand me the unmitigated crap about God's answer being "No." If that's the case, your God isn't as all-powerful or benevolent as you believe.]
That’s a complete non-sequiter. If you’re a parent, do you give your child everything they ask for? If God exists, it’s illogical for you to think that you as a sinful finite being could have the wisdom and knowledge of an infinite being who created the universe. And there are millions of people who testify that God has at some time answered their prayers. Just because you may conclude that it’s a coincidence when a prayer is answered, doesn’t make that to be true.
@Love_in_102 -
We thank you. Based on the other responses so far, you may be the only one who got the point. We appreciate your visits!
-Y
@Midnight_Masochist -
We at Table 54 concur. It makes no difference to us what anyone else believes. We’re just reporting our conversations we have over lunch.
-Y
@Hunt4Truth -
Welcome to our Table Hunt. Your opinions are important to keep the dialogue open. And we always welcome opinions opposite to our own. That’s how we all learn. Oh, and we thank you for the free advertising on your blog. You can’t buy exposure like that. One exception – we’re not angry. In fact, you can ask anyone in our community. We’re always laughing at our Table.
Point One: Pat Robertson is alive and well and still the voice/owner of the “700 Club.” He is one of the richest Christians in the US, watched by millions on his own network. Pat will tell you emphatically that God not only listens to him, He answers his prayers. Notice in the clip in our article, it ends with the conclusion that God answered Pat’s prayer. He didn’t offer proof, of course. You didn’t mention if you believed that Pat’s type of praying was good the the Christian church or not. Just what are your views on it?
Point Two: Ahhh, our “Considering most doctors” quote. What doctors say to their patients or their patients families and what they say to their peers are two different things. As we mentioned in our article most of us (doctors included)would say that “just the act of praying might bring a person a bit of peace during a highly upsetting time” Doctors are not unfeeling about being asked to pray with/for patients. According to a study that appeared in the December issue of the Southern Medical Journal:
Researchers boiled down responses (by doctors to prayer requests) into four scenarios.
In the first, doctors actively took part. Said one, “I stay at the bedside myself because, I felt like … they’re part of my family, so … I love to share that.”
In the second, physicians were present for the prayers but did not take part. “I generally sit quietly and listen to their prayer in what I hope is a respectful manner,” said one pediatric oncologist. One, when asked to lead a prayer, declines while offering to stay with the family. But he said he feels it is “manifestly unfair of patients to demand something so personal of their physicians.”
In the third scenario, doctors tweaked prayer requests. “I try not to bring myself into it,” said one, “because I don’t want this to be about me, and I don’t want them (the family) to think that I have more … power to cure their child than I actually have.”
In the fourth, physicians referred requests to spiritual leaders. “If I feel that their religion is something that I have a hard time understanding,” one doctor said, “I often ask if they would like to have some spiritual guidance.”
Point Three: What people think that their doctors should know about prayer has noting to do with our article. People will ask their doctor to do anything (including asking them to use magic)if they think it will help them or their child to get faster.
A point is made in a New York Times article: “at the medical school where I was trained and others, nothing about religion or spirituality is ever taught. Science is supposed to be logical, rational and objective, while spiritual beliefs are irrational, subjective, elusive and hard to describe.
“…Does it matter whether you and your doctor share the same spiritual beliefs? I would argue that your doctor’s personal beliefs don’t matter. What matters is that your doctor recognizes that your beliefs are important to you. Training cannot convince doctors to become more spiritual. But it can, I hope, make them more aware of the range of views that their patients have. Religion is a huge area that many doctors don’t know much about, yet this is what our patients are thinking about. I hadn’t appreciated the extent of that, until I myself became a patient. (http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/24/prayer-faith-and-doctors/)
Point Four: I’m sure you did find this. Quoting a WND article is like quoting Fox News. They’re equally responsible resources. Forgive us if we don’t consider them reliable.
and Point Five: If you go to a store that sells only chairs, you will only find chairs. You take only one point from our article and claim we failed to make our case. Yet most of our article is about the dangers that claiming TV prayer requests are answered by God.
As for some of the other medical arguments out there here’s a few to chew on:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1877352,00.html
Nobody knows exactly how many children’s health problems are exacerbated by a parent’s religious beliefs because “the system can only kick in if people become aware that a sick child is not getting care,” says Dr. Sara Sinal who co-authored a July 2008 article on religion-based medical neglect in Southern Medical Journal. “It is suspected that many deaths go unreported and unrecognized, particularly in closed communities.”
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_God_can_heal_people_then_why_are_doctors_needed_instead_of_prayer_only
If God can heal people then why are doctors needed instead of prayer only?
The Templeton Foundation trial is far from adversarial to the notion that prayer is beneficial. Nevertheless, they conclusively report that intercessory prayer was proven to have no benefit on the outcome of surgery, in the most carefully designed trial of this type ever undertaken.
(After this statement there were many statements by Christians (not doctors or people in the medical field) stating that God does heal people that are prayed for.)
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
Every time such a study shows a hint of positive results the media have a frenzy of reporting that “science proves faith.” When such studies are negative, the footprint in the media is much smaller. What we find when we look at all the studies of intercessory prayer is the type of scatter of results we would expect from a null intervention – one with no effect at all.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19370557
These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a recommendation either in favour or against the use of intercessory prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care.
Conclusion
The existing research does not support the conclusion that there is any efficacy to intercessory prayer. The research also does not allow for the conclusion that there are health benefits to faith or religion as specific variables. This latter question is open to further research, however.
The scientific evidence can therefore not be used to support the intermingling of faith with the practice of medicine. In any case – doing so raises serious ethical and professional concerns. For example, such practices raise the potential of faith-based discrimination against both physicians and patients. Mixing of faith with medicine can also compromise the professional doctor-patient relationship.
Even if one accepts that there is a health benefit to faith – such a benefit can be entirely realized through private means, without involving the medical profession.
Thanks again, Hunt, for visiting.
-Y
It’s convenient to declare prayer as the cure when the outcome is positive, or when there is no outcome reported (as in the case of televangelists curing people over the phone. If the “cured” don’t report medical findings after the prayer request, then how do we know? We don’t, and that’s the point.), and when the outcome is negative to declare that it is all part of God’s plan. Convenient and disingenuous, and harmful as you indicated. That being said, I would not go so far as to say that prayer doesn’t illicit a response because we all know that the quality of our thoughts can impact our health in physical ways. I can absolutely believe that a person who truly puts their faith in God/Jesus can experience improvement, but in my mind that does not “prove” there is a God answering prayers.
@theKisSilent -
Welcome to Table 54. Hope you’ll stop back again many times. Prayer does illicit a response much in the same was a placebo seems to help some people. The power of the mind is still being studied by science and they in no way have mastered its possibilities. Glad to hear you’ve got a mind that’s on the right path!
- Y
Look at the bright side… televangelists with absolutely no medical powers might be able cure hypochondriacs with no actual diseases. Of course the perfect win-win payback would be for these “patients” to contribute to these charlatans… using play currency from their Monopoly games.
@musterion99 -
Opps. Sorry we missed you. Sorry, but the idea of the killer God as a parent of ours is wholly ludicrous. Parents exist and some don’t answer their children’s questions one way or another. To assume God does is exactly that – an assumption. If God could be said to answer “no” to every prayer that doesn’t get fulfilled he wouldn’t have time to fulfill prayers at all. I can’t begin to imagine the number of zeros after that number.
And no, it makes no difference at all to us if someone wants to believe their prayer was answered any more than it makes a difference to us if someone gets taken advantage of by a TV minister selling prayer shawls. We don’t like to see people suckered in by things religious so we point out our concerns. (Things we talk about at lunch.) But if people want to go ahead and be snookered by their beliefs, there isn’t much we can do about it other than feel sorry for them.
-Y
@Table54 - It may be ludicrous to you but it’s not to millions of other people. God is a God of not just love, but judgment. We have rebelled against God and we are reaping those consequences. It’s also an assumption of yours that God doesn’t answer prayer.
[ If God could be said to answer "no" to every prayer that doesn't get fulfilled he wouldn't have time to fulfill prayers at all.]
What are you talking about? This is the usual atheist ignorance about what God is able to do. I do agree that there are fakes out there but again, that is no proof that it’s all fake. Listen, I’m not interested in going in circles on this so you can go ahead and have the last word.
Dear Yates, Jason, Emery, and Jack:
Go ahead and have a poke at any evangelist you choose. I won’t object. I won’t comment about the two video clips. I don’t associate the videos with my chief objection and complaint. You asked about my beliefs. If I have time, I’ll share about that. If not, I may post about it or come back at another time.
you said:
Point Two: Ahhh, our “Considering most doctors” quote. What doctors say to their patients or their patients families and what they say to their peers are two different things. As we mentioned in our article most of us (doctors included)would say that “just the act of praying might bring a person a bit of peace during a highly upsetting time” Doctors are not unfeeling about being asked to pray with/for patients.
I say:
You make these claims based on your collective knowledge of all doctors. I read the profile. Your assertion is not acceptable based on this alone. However, my findings indicate that most doctors do believe that prayer is comforting for patients that would like to pray. I’ll accept that, as you say, “Doctors are not unfeeling about being asked to pray with/for patients.”
_____
you continue:
According to a study that appeared in the December issue of the Southern Medical Journal:
Researchers boiled down responses (by doctors to prayer requests) into four scenarios.
In the first, doctors actively took part. Said one, “I stay at the bedside myself because, I felt like … they’re part of my family, so … I love to share that.”
In the second, physicians were present for the prayers but did not take part. “I generally sit quietly and listen to their prayer in what I hope is a respectful manner,” said one pediatric oncologist. One, when asked to lead a prayer, declines while offering to stay with the family. But he said he feels it is “manifestly unfair of patients to demand something so personal of their physicians.”
In the third scenario, doctors tweaked prayer requests. “I try not to bring myself into it,” said one, “because I don’t want this to be about me, and I don’t want them (the family) to think that I have more … power to cure their child than I actually have.”
In the fourth, physicians referred requests to spiritual leaders. “If I feel that their religion is something that I have a hard time understanding,” one doctor said, “I often ask if they would like to have some spiritual guidance.”
I say:
The study is perhaps buried someplace. You didn’t list the source WebPages. I’ll assume it is an interview with a few, perhaps four, physicians. I’ll accept that this offers four possible responses. Thanks for working that out.
___
I’ll spare you the blow by blow rejections. Your remaining comments don’t supply any additional value for this discussion. You rejected my survey because it orginates publication that you detest as biased (okay — like you and I are not) and you also made more claims based on your life experience or opinions of others. Your point about tv/radio/prayer evangalists is based on two video clips and some speculation and guesses.
Good night gentelmen.
Hope you’ll eventually realize the truth is out there
Hunt
@Table54
fascinating! Now I remember… you said something vague about that there wouldn’t be enough room for all the dead people in this universe. Now you say there isn’t enough time. Okay, we’ll have to discuss that nothing is truly external, space-time and that God is omnipotent and omnipresent. Wow, what a breakthrough. I’m so happy I came back to see the other comments and what @musterion99 said.
God Bless!
Hunt
The Bible says, “Sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready to give an answer to every one who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.” (1 Peter3:15)
Events record the resurrection of Jesus, which Luke says were validated by Jesus Christ Himself through “many infallible proofs” over a forty-day period before numerous eyewitnesses (Acts 1:3). My goal as apologist is convince participants. It is by choice to participate. I only involve myself if there is a choice by a participant to engage in dialog. I do not participate in dialog that denies my beliefs. I happily do my best to address viewpoints that bring scrutiny to bear upon my understanding. This is why I do not post a blog article that begins with God exists. I cannot prove that to anyone. I can address claims that the universe came into existence by chance. However, in the end, I cannot prove that there is “intelligent design” at the cause. Thus I conduct myself when I am making claims here.
I cannot prove that any particular intercessory prayer or procedure is useful along with medical practice. I can handle the claims that it is not.
I cannot prove that Jesus was born. I can handle clams that he was not.
I cannot prove any particular dating site is best. I can handle clams that a dating site is ineffective (I probably would decline though based on low interest).
The method at Table 54 is not similar. Claims that cannot be proven are made there. Assertions against what cannot be proven are made as well.
I titled my blog as I did, not because I can prove you are angry. I did so to get your goat. Its seemed necessary. All I actually want is for you to present a claim and give the evidence of it that is proof. If you think that Pat Robertson is lying, demonstrate that with proof. You gave only a brief clip that is no proof. He isn’t answerable to anyone based on your clip.
Your video about the UK preacher is better — he’s an unknown but there was at least some evidence in the video that your view is valid. You’d have to find more evidence to be able to prove that he’s a fraud or at least that there are meaningful reasons why you know that he lied. Did no one get a million dollars that day? You don’t have to answer me that or this: Did you choose the Robertson video because he’s well known? I’d understand that — not agree that it changes anything; but I’d understand.
As I promised, I will get about to write about how I view prayer and that will eventually happen. I’m not in a hurry to get it done. I will do it.
Finally for now, I can’t participate in debate with you all if you make claims that are not supported by facts. If you don’t have them, I’ll do my best to pint that out but it won’t be a debate if you don’t have substantial facts. In some case, I may not share an interest or maybe I won’t be motivated, and so, I’ll pass.
You may want to take a crack at my latest blog: Afterlife, Part Two: Dr. Eben Alexander. I’d welcome your criticism if you have some that are supported by facts.